Inside the Retail Executive Mind: A Conversation Founders Need with Ang Nayyar, CEO of StrutFit

If you’re a founder trying to sell into retail, this episode may save you months of missteps. If you’re a retail leader evaluating new technology, it’ll reflect what you often wish vendors understood.

In this conversation with Ang Nayyar from StrutFit, we get into the realities of how retailers think, decide, and evaluate solutions — far beyond what’s visible from the outside.

This episode is especially for:

• Founders and product teams trying to land their first or fifth retail partner
• Retail innovation leaders who want tech partners that understand operations
• VCs and advisors evaluating retail-tech readiness
• Operators trying to understand why tech adoption stalls

Ang explains why retailers say no even when the idea is strong and why pilots die even when the results are good. His breakdown of the internal politics, operational constraints, and hidden decision drivers is one of the clearest you’ll hear.

You’ll learn:

• What retail executives look for before they trust a founder
• Why solving a real problem isn’t enough if the rollout creates friction
• How to avoid becoming “extra work” for stores
• The signals that show you’re ready for a scaled retail partnership
• Why timing and operational fit matter more than innovation
  
  

This episode will tighten your pitch, raise your bar for product readiness, and help you understand the mindset of the people you’re trying to win over.

If you want a more honest, grounded look inside retail decision-making, this conversation gives you exactly that.

Listen now. This episode will reshape how you approach retail.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:50

You know, one of the things I love about doing this podcast is that we talk to some awesome people, amazing, amazing leaders. And today is no different. We have the founder of StrutFit, uh, Ann Nair. And can I just tell you something? The more and more our friendship grew over the last year and a half or so, the more I just became interested in making sure that you heard his story, heard more about who he is, about his company and what and what they do. But also you could take away some of the thoughts and ideas that he is going to share in this episode. I love doing interviews like this with leaders who um have not just a focus on their business, but a focus on their humanity and also information that's going to be more valuable to you. So enjoy this episode with Annaire, founder of Strutfit on retail leadership with Steve Worthy.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Welcome to Retail Leadership with Steve Worthy, where we go well beyond the corporate playbook to unpack major opportunities, hidden challenges, and critical issues that senior retail leaders face every day. So let's get started right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

It's interesting because you and I we first met on LinkedIn, and I think I was, I was, uh I saw your podcast episode with uh with a gentleman, and I can't remember, I can't remember his name. I'm gonna I'm gonna probably insert his name here um for the and in post-production, but uh maybe a clip of that. Uh because it was just a really it was a really great, I don't say what was it? Jerome, right? Jerome. Jerome, yeah. Yeah, it was such a it was such a great episode. And then I got hooked on on uh a couple more of your episodes, and then we reached out, we connected, and then uh you said, Hey, are you going to uh NRF? I say, Yeah, I'll I'll be there. And uh it's interesting. Then we we end up spending like three or three hours together over it over at NRF, just having a conversation and introducing people um you know to you, and and you know, we sat in with uh Ron Thurston and his and his panel. Um, but you know, I feel like I know you well. We've had several conversations before, but for those individuals who do not know you, um, can you just introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Cool. Oh man, how do you introduce yourself? So my name's Aang. Um I live in New Zealand. I was born in the Himalayas, which is a cool place to be born. I am the CEO and co-founder of a company called StrutFit. And the vision for StrutFit, we started off with being like, cool, we want to bring retail into the future, but now very specifically what we're doing is bringing the in-store experience online. There's a lot of good stuff about the in-store experience. You can go in, you can talk to someone, you can try on products and understand if they'll fit you, you can talk to an expert and they can help you look through it. And we want to bring all those good qualities to online because 20% of shopping roughly occurs online. Uh 80% still happens in store, but the more you can bring those two experiences together, the better. And we started off doing that in sizing, and now we're gonna do that in some more cool ways, which we can we can discuss. Um, what else? I'm a musician now. Martial artist, he tissue things.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, I think I think I think right before we we uh we went on we went on, I said, You're a renaissance man because you were explaining to me the the painting and behind you and everything. I said, This guy's a renaissance guy. I mean, I thought I knew you, but then we start talking about the fact that you draw and you do all these other things as well. So it's pretty exciting. We're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about the Himalayas, we're gonna talk about the band, we're gonna talk about um you know your silent retreat, all of those things, because they're all fascinating, not just for me, but I think they're gonna be fascinating for the for the reader, for the listener as well. So when you talk about Strutfit um trying to bring in the the the online um the online experience back into into existence, right? Into its prominence. What what specific problem though were you were you were you trying to solve when you when you developed StrutFit?

SPEAKER_04 5:00

Okay, initially we weren't trying to solve a problem. Initially we had some cool technology and I was trying to make let you scan your foot and we would make shoes and you could like design uh a tailored shoe so you could choose that if you wanted Oxford or a Derby, what sort of boguing you wanted, these all words you're familiar with if you like formal shoes. Um, and as we were validating this idea, talking to existing footwear companies, well, I was like, hey, can I make this stuff at scale? And they're like, Oh, maybe, but you know, we're actually really interested in your technology, like sizing's a problem for us. Can you solve this problem? And initially, and I was like, I'm just gonna I'm gonna try to make this stuff. I came up with a system to make Taylor's shoes at scale, but then we got a mentor who had been at a company called 42 Below, which was acquired by Bacardi. Then he was at a fashion brand um and CFO of that, and he's like, Look, you guys have customers without trying to sell them anything. Why don't you just focus on the software? And if you want to make shoes later, you can, but you're free software guys, why don't you focus on the software? And so we started doing that and specifically just solving sizing for footwear online. And we started actually with children first, because we're like, if you can scan children, you can scan anyone. Children are hard to work with. Um, so we started that, and then over time it started to grow as we develop relationships with retailers like Lacoste and Hoker. They're like, hey, footwear's great. We also sell apparel. Can you solve sizing for apparel? Or hey, an X amount of people are willing to scan their feet, but some people aren't somewhere they can scan. They might be on the tube, uh on the subway, or they might be uh in the library or at work, and so can you come up with a solution for them because they can't scan their feet? And we're like, cool, yeah, we can do that. So we did that. And now what we're noticing is consumer behavior is about to have probably the most dramatic shift since e-commerce was invented. Um, and you're noticing it in your private lives with how much man, I was in the sauna, and somebody was on chat GPT in the sauna, which is instant mute. Oh, the sauna's so hot, and they have their iPhone now, and then they took their photo from Instagram, put it into chat GPT, and they're like, give me a caption for it, and then they went back to Instagram and read the caption and uh and then their phone was like too warm, can't be used. Um but the amount of people are relying on LLMs and just going to this this very knowledgeable air quotes uh agent and just wanting to talk to it and be like, hey, I don't want to search the whole internet because there's so much information there, there's so much noise. I just have a question, can you just give me the best information? And so that's how people want to. I don't want to go on to Dalf Martins and look at 640 shoes. Or if you choose just boots, I don't want to have to look to 240 boots. What I want to tell you is, hey, I'm going to Glastonbury. I bought this dress from All Saints. Here's a photo of the dress. Give me give me some options which go with this dress. And then the conversation I can recognize it's like, oh, okay. Actually, let me not use that example. No, I'll keep it. I've started it, I'll keep going. And then can look at it and like, look, it's a frog print. Here are some shoes which if we might look edgy with it. If you want to go for an edgy look, here you go. And also we can solve your sizing. You can scan your foot or you can ask us some questions and boom. We found you the three pro So you've gone from having to browse through 600, 240 products. Yeah, okay, what do I like? Click on it, ask on my size. Oh, this is just a frustrating, frictionful experience. They're being like, oh, let me let me this thing just wants to talk to me. I'll talk to it. Boom. Here's the context, here's what I want, here's what I have. Give me some options, here's my size, boom, I can add to cart, you're ready to go. All contained within you're not having to click jump around the whole website and face this truly frictionless experience. So I think customers are going to want to they're gonna expect this because they're already doing it in their personal life, like you've already doing it in your personal life. Like how much are you going to Google now versus ChatGPT?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting now because you you're I I think about maybe even just maybe seven years ago, right? Five, seven years ago, and then back further, where you you wanted to browse, right? Going online was actually the experience of browsing and you know, looking at a myriad of different things, stores, sizes, whatever it was. And now we're we've gotten to the point, I think, now where there's so many options online and so many um um potential things that you could either purchase or buy or look at, to your point, it seems like the consumer is like, okay, you know what? It's too much noise. There's too much noise. I need a little bit more specificity, right? Inside of all of these options, pick for me the best option. I don't want to do all that work anymore. And then we then when you think about buying patterns, right? So if you're already on a specific website, they already have your buying patterns, your your your your shopping history. So now you can actually tailor, you know, your your your actual uh request based on everything that you've already you've already purchased. So what so so what you're saying is I I won't say browsing is dead, but specificity is is actually gonna be the gonna be the new thing. Is that it would would you would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_04 11:53

I would say so, and I would make a less hard claim in the fashion space because people may still want to fout, and we're not experts at Strupford in fashion just yet. We are experts when it comes to functional and performance, and there you have an even more important use case where I had this. I'm going down to the slopes um next week, and I wanted a snowboard. And usually I just rent, I just go in, I just rent, and so they just give me, they're like, cool, you're this tall, take this, here's your shoes. But this time I just wanted to buy it because I'm like, I think this is something I'll do regularly. And I just went into I went on to chat, and I was like, hey, I'm this tall, this is my weight. Uh I'm like, I've I've gone five times, I'm okay. Um, I don't know how to do tricks, I just want a board. What sort of board would you recommend? And this is the kind of experience people want. Like, if you go onto Rosignol, if you go into Nidaca, currently you have to, unless you're an expert in that field and you know exactly what you're looking for, what you want is you want to talk to a knowledge store assistant, which you would do in the store, but you can't do that. So online you have to like click through everything and be like, oh, what's the right product for me? Um if you're going running, what we're able to do now is in a store, you can sort of if some of the stores you can run on a treadmill, you they can assess your biomechanics, and you can be like, hey, you know, I'm going for a hike um in the Rockies. Is that a thing in the US?

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Rockies. Yep, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

Uh making sure. And you're like, oh, I'm gonna go for a Rockies fact is this specific hike. Um I'm going for two days. Uh and I'm going from a week from now. Like a 10-star experience, and this we won't have this from the start, but a 10-star experience would be like, oh, you're going next week, here's what the weather's gonna be. Yeah, yeah. Here are the conditions, I know which trail you're on, I know the distance. Um, you said this is one of your first hikes, we know your biomechanics. Boom, here's the best shoe for you, and this here's two other options. And like, what a what a nice way to shop versus here's 120 shoes, shoes. Good luck.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

I I I did that actually with my trip to um London. I said, I'm gonna be in London for eight days this time of year, um, you know, and then said, Okay, the weather's gonna be X, Y, and Z, Steve, and you should you should bring this, this, and this, and this. And it was like, oh, so, and then all I did was like look at my phone and I picked and went into my my closet and I ended up picking out what it's said to to bring. It was pretty much spot on, right? And so it's interesting now where we are, we you know, it's almost become a personal shopper, even with things that we currently have inside of ourselves. I wanna I want to ask you a question though, because initially you say you guys started out as, you know, you wanted to design shoes, right? And then you you utilize the technology. How hard was it for you to say, okay, you know what, I'm gonna put this design thing on the, you know, onto the side and actually pivot into this uh into this tech side of business?

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Uh it wasn't hard because I mean it took me three months to come around to it. Um but the I'm I wasn't super passionate about making shoes or design to begin with. My background, I was a software engineer. Um and my co-founders were software engineers, and really I'm our background as far as business goes is I ran there's an entrepreneurship program at the University of Auckland, student-led, and I was I was a and ran a team of sort of 30 people and went through that and we were just coming up with ideas, and really all I wanted to do was build a company with my friend, and honestly, didn't expect to get this far where it's like I let's work a year, and then you sort of pivot and you're like, Oh, this might be something, and then like oh, let's let's talk to investors, and and you do a good job pitching, and you're like, Okay, well now we've got money and we can actually do this thing, and so you start again not expecting to go anywhere, and then all of a sudden you're working with the biggest brands in the world, and you're you have employees, you have mortgages and kids, and it's all become very real. So it at the start it was just like hey, I just want to I just want to build something of value for the world with my friend, and so I wasn't how bent on making shoes in particular, um so it was okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, you know, it's it's that's an interesting point, right? Because we because when I think about the question I that I just asked, right? Like what, you know, the first question, like what problem were you going to solve, right? It's very, very like robotic, right? Sort of question. I asked, had to I always ask it anyway. But I think now, as I was speaking with you and I'm speaking with other people who have started different businesses, yes, they probably get to a problem that they want to solve, but I think more more often than not, they realize that this is something I want to do, not just for myself, but I want to really I want to really help society out. I really want to do something that's a little bit different, that's not so much avant-garde, but I don't really have a specific problem that I'm just trying to solve. I just want to build I just want to build something, right? Do you do you see more more entrepreneurs and more people like doing that instead of instead of um saying I want to solve a very specific problem? I just want to just want to build something.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Yeah, it's it's probably more that. I think the people who want to do one very specific thing will probably get too bent up on that one thing. Like if you talk to any entrepreneur, it's full of pivots. And so it's like, hey, I want to do one thing, you're not gonna objectively see what's coming back to you from the world, um, which is crucial. That's the the m the most crucial part is like I have a hypothesis, let me go out to the world. Okay, I've got information. Now let me take this information, let me digest it, let me it'll inform the hypothesis, and you might come up with a slightly different hypothesis, and then you go back to the world, and it's this iterative evolutionary process. Um so even if you went out to do something specific, it would morph. And I think if you tried to hold on it hold on to it too tightly, then you'd have a perhaps a small thing or nothing at all. Maybe you'd smother it.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah, no, no, I I I agree with that. I agree with that. So um let's let's switch gears here and talk a little bit about like clients, right? Let's talk a little bit about um you know your your ideal client, the clients that you you like to work with, um, and the value that that you bring. So talk a little bit about you don't have to mention names if if you know uh you know if you don't if you don't want to, but if you want to, that's great. Um but just talk a little bit about your clients and those those individuals that you serve.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

Sure. So our before when we started, we were like, cool, we'll solve the sizing problem for everyone in footwear. And so we just worked with we worked with everyone, and so we got fashion brands, we got large fashion brands like Lacoste, we got large performance brand, we got small Bayfoot brands like Birchberry. Um, and so we kind of just said yes to everyone, and we thought we would add value to everyone, and we do, it's just the value sort of differs and the need differs because of the the customer, the end user coming in cares a different amount. Like if you're buying a fashion shoe, you want it to fit, but it's not your primary concern. You just you mostly want it to look good. If you're running a marathon, that's your better fit. Because 100% than you'd be an actual pain. Um and so right now our focus is particularly on performance and functional companies like hiking companies or outdoor companies, running companies, even snowboard companies, where we can add value on the sizing, but also we can help guide the customer to get the right technical product. And we can do that through you know, through a conversational AI where they can just talk, be like, hey, you know, I'm going for this hike. And they're like, Cool, you know, how long is the hike or what are the conditions like? Um we can also, through algorithms we've developed, understand whether they have pronation or supernation, um, and if they're forefoot striking or heel striking, and then along with the brand, recommend products which are unique to this person, and she's getting this truly personalized experience, and it gets your size, uh, and then the value you're adding to the performance retailers, it's just crazy. Like you're almost taking charge of that whole buying process and making it super infrictionless. Like someone comes on, you just final them into this because it'll you they can tell you exactly what they want, it can help them guide the right product, get the right size, add to cart, you're good to go. Um so yeah, that's what we're focusing on. That's our focus for the next sort of six months. Uh and then once we start nailing that functional space, then there is an interfaction as well. Um and that's more of a style resistant where you're like, oh cool that the shoes give me some jeans with goal with it. And then it can it can understand that and come back to you with options. And and there is companies like Mango in Europe doing that, and large companies will try to help us internally. Um but there will be a lot of companies which either don't have the capacity to do it internally, um, but we know want to appear big and want to have this like they want to have the cool latest technology and be able to compete with um compete with the big guys. So we we give them this Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I I I love it because I there's also when you know when you and I have spoken you know, you know, several times, and I think one of the areas that you you often talk about without even talking about is storytelling, right? When when it comes to whether it's Strudfit and who you work with and also that like that consumer brand or the consumer experience. When you are working with a um a brand, how important is that, you know, that part of the the engagement, the process, the connection with that brand, that storytelling aspect? Because I think a lot of times we just get so focused on the the in product and we're not really helping you know companies craft that story? Because that for me I think that that story is is is very important. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 23:32

To clarify the question, is it the story we are telling to the company about our product, or is it the story we're crafting together through the product for the end consumer?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

The latter. The latter.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Oh, that's so that's I mean, both are crucial. The latter is crucial, like even more crucial, because it's all about in fact we're stepping away. At the start, we had the StratFit branding, and that was like you go on, you're on the Hoker website, you click on Stratfit, you scan, you can save a Stratford account, and the idea behind that was you could go to different retailers and you wouldn't have to scan your foot again. And we were thinking about the customer. Um, we're stepping away from that, and we're actually making it a completely white-labeled experience where for the customer, whether you engage with the shoe finder, or would you engage with the sizing assistant, or whether you're uh engage with like the FAQ bot, it's all branded like the same brand, and you're telling a consistent story, it talks like you, it's got the same font, it's got your assets. Um so that's super that's super important. And then like these brands want like some of the brands we're talking to, they're like, hey, you know, we want to become a more premium band brand and we want to have these more premium experiences. And shopping at the end of the day is an experience. Um do people need all the stuff they're buying? I don't know. I don't think we need that much stuff. So we're obviously we're doing it for more than just the the functional part of it. We're doing it because it's an experience that makes us feel a certain way, and we recognize that that's part of what the customer wants, is this experience, and like you know, life you go to a movie, you're you're buying an experience, and so all of these things are experiences, so of course you want to very carefully craft this experience, and we're we're recognizing that like we knew that in that beginning, and now it's just even more important, and that's why we're stepping away from our branding and just letting the brand sort of white label the solution uh at all touch points.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And so so uh so speaking about less, speaking about not um needing everything that we we purchase, uh I I I love our conversations and I love the fact that Um, you just came back. Not just came back. I don't know, it's been by the time this goes out, it's gonna be several months. But um you mentioned, of course, that you were born in the Himalayas and you you went on a silent retreat. Listen, man, I'm from New York. I can't stop talking for like five minutes. So talk to the one thing I've always found interesting in with with you in our conversations, right? You you are you are very very smart when it comes to business, right? And your business, your acumen is, is, is, is ridiculous. But then there's this side of you of like that's almost sort of disconnected from the business in the context of like you still need to be ang, right? You still need to, you're still sort of searching for like who you are and your and your purpose. And I I love those conversations with you because I get so much out of it. You you you you give me quotes, you give me books, you give me ideas, you give me perspectives, and I just love that. So could you talk a little bit about um you know that silent retreat that you that you actually experienced?

SPEAKER_04 26:53

The silent meditation is called a vipassna. It's a 10-day silent meditation, and it's called vipassna. And we did it in the Himalayas, but you can do it all over the world. They have centers all over the world, probably hundreds in America, and you go in, you observe noble silence for ten days, where you can't speak to anyone, you can't look at people in the eyes, you wake up at 4 a.m. every day, they ring a bell, a gong, and you wake up, you get to the Dhamma Hall at 4 30, and then you meditate. Actually, I haven't reflected on this in a while. Um Yeah, and then you meditate for 11 hours in that day, and you repeat it for 10 days, and each day you're given a different instruction to focus on, and you slowly progress towards sort of narrowing and focusing your awareness to it's uh a fine needle point, and then you're able to and that's at the tip of your nose, and then you're able to move it around your body and sense where you are in space, um, and then you move it symmetrically around the body and understand where you are in space, and then the sensations you can notice as you're building it's like cartology of the body, as you're building this map of the body, are smaller and smaller, and Buddha was allegedly able to go down to the micro vibrations that our particles change. Particles are vibrating all the time, and there's a s some specific number that he came up with some million amount of times um per second, and he was able to sense this. And this these lower levels of um movements sort of make up who we are, and we sort of operate at this really high level, but if you sit still and you just let the high-level stuff quieten down, you can start to see what you're made of, um, which is a powerful and sort of transformative experience. And Buddha did it for 40 days under the Bodhi tree and found enlightenment. Uh, whatever that means, uh, probably means different things to different people. But certainly you can follow this method and other methods and reduce suffering. Um and suffering, the Buddha's term is like duk, which is it's like unnecessary suffering. Like when something bad happens, there's the initial reaction to it, and that's okay. Uh, you know. Someone in the extreme version, someone dies, and that's sad, and you you should feel sad because you love that person and your memories and you expected to have more memories with that person. You thought you had more time. Um and so you should feel sadness, and you should feel sadness for as long as it sort of comes up, but then if you hold on to it, then you you end up increasing your suffering, and it doesn't now it's not from the external world, now it's from yourself. You're holding on to it, you're thinking about it, you're stuck in loops, and you know, we do this in all sorts of ways, and a lot of our suffering, what was it, Mark Twain? He's like, I've worried about a great many things, some of which have happened.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Yeah. Look, this this is to me, you're the first guest that I've ever had, quote, Mark Twain. So that's awesome. Um so interesting, you I mean he said so many, so many things there, but one thing that stuck out was you know when um Buddha did it and he talks about he he found out what he was made of. Right? I almost feel like I almost feel like that's I haven't gone through that before. I haven't gone through it. I I I I I I could probably just do maybe one day, uh, maybe two days. Uh what did you find out about yourself as you, what you were made of when you uh you know, as you reflect on it now, or maybe like immediately afterwards, I don't know what the the time span it may have taken you to get to that point where you've realized something different about yourself, something new, something that you want to change, something that you want to adjust.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

It's hard to disambiguate um what I learned on that retreat versus what I had already sort of deciphered and and learned. Um that retreat for me was not about port. I did almost no thinking. I was just following their method. I developed some of my own methods as well, which you're not supposed to do, you're supposed to follow their method. Um but it was very much about sort of building this map of the body, and I had already the ability to move my consciousness around your body, because okay, so what what is your consciousness is like there's electrical impulses, mostly you're in your brain and you think you're in your eyes, and mostly this is where you are. Um, but if you if you close your eyes, actually we can do this on camera. If you I'll do it first. We can do it together. No, I need to be able to I'll do it first. So if I close my eyes, I can put my consciousness in my fingertips, and I'll just like wiggle my fingertips around, and my eyes are closed, and somehow I'm able to make them meet when my eyes are closed. Yeah. Yeah. So that's so with no visual information, you're able to and you give it a go.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah. Close your eyes. Oh almost. Yeah, there you go. Almost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

It did. That's the part actually actually, that's the part that I took out of it was the adjustment. Right? I was able to I I had it I had a goal in mind. I had and I had a perspective of what I wanted to have happen, and it didn't really happen initially, but I was able to adjust it very quickly. Um anyway, but I'm sorry, go ahead, go, go, we're gonna say something.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

No, that's that's that's precisely right. Like, and that's part of the Mipassna, is like you notice your shoulders symmetrically, and then what you notice is you're like, oh, one one's more forward than the other. Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm not I'm not balanced. Oh, there's some there's some imbalance here. Oh, I'm holding on to this pain in my heart. Like, what is this what is oh has this pain or why it's first it's numb, and then you feel into it and you're like, oh, why am I holding? Like what is this? And sometimes you're able to understand what that is and let go, but oftentimes you know, you start crying and you're like, oh I don't know, I don't know what I was holding there, but I know I was holding something and you release it, and your body keeps it score and all of a sudden you feel lighter, you're like, oh I can I didn't realize my chest opens like it. I that I I just thought this is who I am, and so your being starts to change and uh and you know eventually the realization dawns upon you that all of this, the reason you can close your eyes and make your fingers touch is because all of this is happening in your own head. Like, yes, there's a physical reality here which is real, but what your brain is doing, you know, it's it's getting light rays into your eyeballs upside down, and then it's reconstructing them into this 3D space. So all of this which is occurring is is is your perception of it. And so truly what you think you see, how you see the world, does actually shape how you see the world. And I've had some unique and hard to explain experiences about this, uh, but I think that's an important realization. When you realize, oh, I'm I'm not different from this chair or this laptop because both of these things are in my head, which is an interesting uh way of being when you realize it.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah. That's awesome. As you as you think about, you know, um your experiences, not just with the um the the the silent retreat, you do, of course, a lot of a lot of a lot of meditation and um and we've had some conversations with with for for me when you know I was going feel like I was going through a period of burnout, we had a really great conversation that you helped me um you know understand really what what that was, what I was what I was going through. How how does all of this impact you as a as a leader, right? You're running this you're running this big company, um, right? You got clients all all over the world, right? Because I can all I can hear people, you know, looking at this or listening to this, and they're like, well, this doesn't, it doesn't take all of that. It doesn't take all of that. I can I can manage my own stuff, and I'm still running this big company. I almost feel like they're they're they're missing something um to you know about themselves that will actually help them become a better leader, right? Would you agree with that? Or what are some of the things that you have, you know, um taken from your personal life and the things that you do um from a spiritual standpoint into yourself as a leader and running a company here is off the top of my head the most actionable piece of advice I can give to leaders, which doesn't require you to meditate.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Um and it's it's something like this ability to switch off autopilot. I mean the Indians call it karma, I'm just gonna call it autopilot, which is someone says something to you, um, gives you a new piece of information, hey this the sale didn't go really well, and immediately you respond. And the way you respond in that moment, if you're doing it automatically, with with no cause, is going to be the way you've always done it. Um and so if you're not happy, if you're happy with where you are and how you're leading, and you're like, hey, life's going great, everything's exactly how I want it to be, then sweet, keep going on that path. But if that's not the case and you're like, hey, I would have something I would like something to change, then you need a then you need a a way to pause. There's like stimuli and the more you can pause between the stimuli and your response, that's where you can change, and that's where you are just this pure awareness. And a really simple, actionable way to do this, and I came up with this um through your whole day go 30% slower. Everything 30% slower. Brushing your teeth, go 30% slower. Speaking, 30% slower. And you will forget. Um, but if you try it and you stick with it for the whole day, you'll get to the end of the day, and you're like, Well, I went I went 30% slower, but I didn't get 30% less done. I got the same amount done.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

And I I was there for it. The day has the day didn't fly, the day didn't just blink and it was gone. I was there, things happened, I got to experience it. And people think the most important well, people think currency is money, and then you think about it a bit more and you're like, oh, actually the real currency is time. Warren Buffett talks about this, you can't get time back. Go a step further, the real currency is attention.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

I love that. How how much of your life are you there for? Uh, and how much of your how much of your attention can you give someone when they deliver, hey, the sale didn't go well? Instead of just autopilot, listen to them, understand what didn't go well, give them your attention, and then together you can sort of move forward. So that's a simple action. You don't have to go away and meditate, just go 30% slower, but good luck.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

I look, you know, um Gary V often talks about um the attention, the attention economy. And while companies are always vying for the your attention, right? Whether it's marketing or whatever you want to call it, it is your attention. And the more attention you give to something, the more you you you give away, right? You give away your time, you give away your your presence, you give away your um you know, some some some sense of of of understanding because your your attention has been drawn into something else. But I I I love in the context of what you're talking about as it relates to the attention that you give to other people, you know, and and and this this this cause and effect that actually takes a place. Because if you if you don't give attention to uh another individual, I I call it I call it margin. I call it margin. Every time I talk to leaders, I always talk about margin, the margin that they have in their life. Like, are you creating any margin? And that is like being able to take in information and ideas from other people, but then there's a there's a there's a reciprocity to that. Like you also have to give things away. So we have this consumption, I think, consumer economy where people will just take, take, and take, and they just keep it and they hoard it, and they don't give it away. And I I've almost feel sorry for those type of leaders because we have more of those leaders than we do the ones that actually give really good quality ideas and concepts and even parts of themselves away. We have to give we have to get back to that. There have to be a balance with that. And so I just love the fact that you said that attention is the is the new economy. So I I think that's gonna help a lot of leaders understand a little bit more about where they are and and what they're giving away to other people as well.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

There's so much joy in giving. Um there's so much joy in creating. I think society has been set up for us, and I don't necessarily think there's some big organization doing it. It perhaps it's been set up unconsciously, but you know, they want us to consume. There was a time where music was not something you bought and listened to, it was singing around the campfire, and you didn't have to pay a hundred bucks and goes to be able to sing songs, and you know, if you're religious and we've been created in the image of our Lord, yeah, who is a creator, then it's like, well, perhaps the most godly thing you can do is create, right? And so uh I think when people this is a great quote. Uh I I can't remember who said it, but he's like, You can create tonight. You can write a poem, you can draw you can draw a picture, you can do it tonight, and nobody can stop you. You can do it for yourself, you can write it down, you can look at it and you're like, Oh, I made this, and no one can stop you. And then you just put it away and you go to bed and you just give that a go. Write a poem just for yourself, and no one needs to know. You don't need to tell anyone and you made something and it didn't exist without you, and now here it is in the world, just for you.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Oh I often I often talk about it in in the in the entrepreneurial space when I'm talking to people who are like creating a business, and they will they often get frustrated um about where they are um in their process or their journey. And and I would say to them, listen to me, you're building, you're creating something that hasn't existed before.

unknown 41:39

Right?

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I don't care if you may you may see a company that's doing something similar or or uh you're in a similar vertical. I say, you're literally creating something that that hasn't existed before. So give yourself some grace. Give yourself, you know, the the um the uh the attention to to to love for lack of a better word, that you need to give yourself that you're you're creating something like that hasn't existed before. And it always sort of always sort of blows their mind when I when I talk about it in that context, they're like, I never thought about it that way. Right. And I think when you when you when you do do that, when you realize that you're creating something that that really hasn't existed before, um you you there's a lot of there's a lot of um um things that you're learning about yourself in that in that process that you you don't give yourself enough attention to understand, like, oh wow, like whether it's marketing, whether it's um trying to get a c a customer or whatever it may be, but even just like to get people to like engage with your brand, it's something brand new to you that you haven't done before. So anyway, that's my little that's my little diatribe on on that whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

If I could just add to that, because I've been there as a founder where you're critical of yourself and you know, people speak to themselves in in ways they would never speak to anyone else. It's like, well, you talk to your best friends. Um and so yeah, if we can just be you know kinder to ourselves, I think we you've you'd you'd go a much you'd have a much nicer time of it as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Yeah, that's so interesting that we do. We we're very like I I say stuff to myself that I would never say to people. Like, um, you know, if you didn't you didn't you know get a uh a task accomplished or you didn't meet a quote unquote expectation, you know, of yourself, or like um, you know, even I'll I'll I'll give you an example. Like even you know, those who uh are gonna be looking at this recording, they don't know that we had a little blip, right? Um earlier, right? And I was like, and that in that moment, I was like, you know what? Let me give myself some grace. You know, let me just let me just figure out the problem. We'll get back on and we'll we'll we'll finish the recording aspect of it. So we do, we do, we're very hard on ourselves. We have to give ourselves more grace. Um you you mentioned a little bit, I'm gonna uh before we get into this um like little lightning round thing, I I do want to uh talk about you know the fact that you are in a band. Right? You know, we you know I I'm I think it was our second to last meeting where we were talking, and you were like, yeah, you know, I'm in a band. I was like, what did this come from? Like I don't remember this. I don't remember this in our previous conversations. Um so you're a CEO, you you go and you you you you you do silent retreats, right? You are um you're you're you're wise beyond your years, and and now you're and now you're in a band. Walk me walk me through the band situation.

SPEAKER_04 44:47

I mean the band thing was so random. Like my friends, actually on this guitar, that guitar, my friend was teaching my other friends and my friend Hans, who actually now makes guitars, and it'll be crazy looking back at this podcast in like five, ten years when it's like one of the biggest guitars I live in the world. But anyway, my friend Hans made his first guitar last year, and now he's got this guitar company. But a couple years before that, he was just teaching my other friend Jordan, who's a very successful entrepreneur, how to play the guitar. And they had to have a couple sessions, and I walk up, and I was like, oh, we should start a band. Just I think I said it as a joke. I don't quite recall. I said it as a joke, and then you know, on Saturday they're like, Cool, well, let's have a band practice. And so we get there, Han starts playing, and he's like, Cool, hang, sing. Oh, brother. I don't even know what that means. Like, it what do you mean? Just just sit like what what do I say? How do I say it? What what are notes? What's melody? I don't know it. So I just sat there mute for one hour. I didn't say anything. He plays lots of different things, he's just looking at me. He does this thing, he just looks at me, waiting for me to come in, and I just look back and uh I'm like look down and I'm like sit there one hour of that. Come back a week later, and I'm like, I can't I can't just sit there mute for an hour, so let me like letting me stuff and I do a lot of I have periods where I do a lot of journaling and I'll write my journal kind of like poetry. And so I'm like, I'm fairly good at writing prose, but so I'd rock up next time and then I'm like I have words but I still don't know what singing is and then the third so literally stuff like that, and then he's like, Alright, just get a dictionary out. Gives me a a dictionary or like some random book, and he's like, just start singing words in whatever. And so that's how I started. And then as I got into it, I realized my you know my face was kind of kind of collapsed and my body was asymmetrical, and I figured that if you're if if you're if the body is an instrument and you're singing, effectively all you're doing is creating a structure with your body and emitting sound form and you're singing. So if you if you have good posture and you know where everything is. So I set out on this journey and I spent two or three years fixing my posture with existing techniques and random stuff out there. And now yesterday I had my first singing lesson because I was like, Cool, now I've you know, I'm 90% of the way, I've almost fixed this instrument. I know where things are. If she tells me to like relax my shoulders or relax this area, I I can do that because I know where it is. Um because all the whole body went to sleep if you don't pay attention, and if you gotta wake it back up. And so I had the first lesson, and she's like, Oh, it's great you've been doing this work for the last two years, and I think you've timed it well that you can come come to come here now and I can give you these techniques, and you can go away and practice. And so um, yeah, it it's such a fun, like, even if no one listens to our music, it's just such a fun create stuff. Like s you know, sitting around the campfire with a guitar and you can like you can just do percussion of yourself, really.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Yeah. Uh and singing, and that's just so many religions have converged upon singing as a mode of connection to something higher and a formal release. Um I mean, it chills just think about it. Literally every religion has this. And so you're like, okay, well, clearly th there's something going on here. And so yeah, it's just it's just such a fun thing. Um you know, why I'm doing it beyond that. I think music is probably the most effective way to spread a message through the world. Uh you know, short of starting a religion. Uh-huh. Probably the most effective. Like you can come up with a good catchy tune, and even even before you add words, it's it's saying something. And then you add words, you know. What it usually happens with meaningful songs is people sort of sing along, and then over time you're like, oh wait, that's what the lyrics are saying? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what they meant. Yeah. And so I'll I think, you know, I've I've I've struggled in life and I've learned some things, um, and I'm on this journey now to become ordinary. And I think part of part of the music is to you know, people shouldn't have to start from people shouldn't have to learn everything on their own. Like the part of the the human experience is, you know, let's learn let's learn from other people's struggles. And if I can if I can tell my stories in a way where it resonates and you're like, oh that's the same story. Oh, oh maybe maybe I you know maybe I do treat my parents the way I've been treating them for the last 15 years. Maybe I don't see them for who they are. Maybe I have this image of them, and that's why we we get together as a family and everyone reverts to, you know, 15 years ago when we were all living together and they start treating me this way, and then I react. And um, so you know, sh I think sharing stories like that and getting people to sort of have realizations is but also, you know, and dance that's a fun thing to do. Subnerve.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, you talked about the family thing. I remember um um, you know, Father's Day in the States was just, you know, um in in in July, and I and I and I wrote about this story um where um we were visiting when my dad was still alive, we were visiting my dad, and um my my my three girls were we we were all in this one room and my dad was in the other room and uh and he called and he you know like you know yelled my name like you know everybody calls me Stevie and he just his voice is deeper than mine and he's just like Stevie and I I literally like jumped because I hadn't he I hadn't heard him call me like that like since I was a kid, right? And I like I literally like jumped and my girls like looked at me like like oh my god. I said, I said, I think they at that moment in time they really they realized that their dad is someone's kid. They they understood that I'm you know he's my father, but they didn't realize they were like, you are someone's kid, right? And so it was just a it was just an interesting um it situation because they just looked at me like in in this in in awe of like, holy crap, like someone actually, you actually have to answer to somebody as well. So just think about this the the the family connections and just moments in life that you sometimes we we we allow to pass by and we don't we don't um necessarily give them the the due respect you know that they that they need. I love the fact that you're um that you've picked up singing. I love the fact that um like I think you sort of hinted in there about you're you know you're writing a book, right? It was it called Becoming Ordinary, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

Or still the title. Oh, you can steal it if you want. It'll take me another eight years probably to write this book, and not because the book requires that level of effort, but it's the the the book is a is my journey to becoming ordinary. And I think ordinary to me means getting back to zero. And I think that's maybe a mild form of enlightenment where you know you carry all this, like you're born and you don't get to make decisions really until you're eighteen, probably. And then by that time, the the way in which you make decisions has been informed by the environment you grew up in so heavily. Um you didn't choose that environment and you didn't choose your parents, you didn't choose your school, and so you are this you have all this you think you're this person, but I would say you're not this person. Um I would say you're carrying a lot of stuff you don't need to carry, and you're telling yourself stories which aren't true, uh, and you carry it in your mind and you carry it in your body, and so my whole thing is, you know, people are trying to go from one to a hundred, and I'm like, brother, you're a negative fifty. You just need to get to zero. Get to zero, you need to l Bruce Lee, you know, how can you how how can you fill your cup? It's already full to empty the cup first. So get back to become ordinary. And then once you're there, once once up is up and left is left and right is right, because right right now that's not the case. Right now you're like here and you're like you think you're putting your hand up, but really you're putting your hand like in that direction. And so it's like playing a game, you know, some games they flip the controls and left is right and right, left, and it becomes really hard. It's kind of like that. Like you you think you're doing something, but that's not quite you what you're doing. But if you can get back to zero, then you can do whatever you want, and everything becomes a lot easier, and it's probably a closer representation of like you versus what society wants versus this like escalator they put you on, go to school, go to university, get a job, get married, have kids. Are you happy yet? I don't know. Um Yeah. It's the the book is about becoming ordinary, but no one's gonna read it if I haven't done anything. So and my my goal is to become ordinary, become a successful entrepreneur, become a successful musician. Um, the band's name is Ordinary Men, and then now it's like cool, you know, there's like Kanye West Coast. I don't I don't take advice from people less successful than me. So I'll become successful and then I'm like, cool, well, here's how I got here, and you can do it too, and I'm not special. In fact, I'm ordinary and you can be too.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

Yeah, oh man, that's so good. It's interesting because I I think society will fight tooth and nail to tell you that you're that you're not ordinary, right? And so society will just they'll they'll keep filling you with things to fill your cup, right? And then by you filling your cup, you just you just continue to say to yourself, well, I'm not ordinary. I have this, I have this car, I have this house, I have this zip code, I have, you know, this number of kids, I have, you know, I'm in a rotary club, I'm this, I'm this and that. And but when you strip all of that away, it almost feels like you know, you're the you know, the emperor, you know, you know, with new clothes or doesn't have any clothes, it's like, well, who am I without all of these things? So, so let me ask you that question. When you when you get yourself down to zero, like, who are you at zero? Right? I don't I mean, that's probably a personal question that people are gonna need to answer, right? Uh maybe, and that's probably a rhetorical question for yourself, but I uh it's one that just came to mind. It's like when I get to zero, like, who am I?

SPEAKER_04 55:40

Uh the the who am I is such a loaded question. Yeah. Because each each of the words, if you look at the words closely, who am I? imply that there's a you. There's like a who, yeah, which implies there's there's a there's a some there's a someone, and then there's a am, which implies sort of being, and then the I is also loaded because it has sort of this I loaded in it. And I mean the mystics will say there is no I. You know, there's there's only the experience and there's not the experiencer. Um I don't think I have a good question, uh, an answer for this, really. I'm gonna you I'm gonna delay this. Give me 10 more years. I haven't gotten back to the book. I have a have a I don't know what it'll be like. I d I have thought about this. I'm like, what do I do when I get to zero? Yeah. Um I think I get to sing and and dance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

Have you alright, I'm I'm gonna keep asking this question because I I I because maybe this is maybe this is I'm asking myself this. Um have I ever or have you ever been at at zero before, right? I almost feel like I wouldn't know when I was at at zero, and then I probably started adding more things on, adding more layers on, and maybe it was just for a moment or a season of my life, right? And um where I just I I felt extremely light, I felt extremely um uh free, and there wasn't a me a massive care and concern about achieving um or about moving forward. It was just I was okay with where I were where I where I am. Um and I wasn't pursuing anything. I I wasn't going after anything, and and I wasn't allowing the things of of the world to to influence me. And I I I feel like I have been there before, but it wasn't I didn't stay there long because I think I I think part of it I was probably scared. I think I was probably nervous of that of that feeling of not pursuing, of not going after, and not listening and just being still, right? And I think that fear caused me to move out of that space. So anyway, that was just my own I just started thinking about that.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

It sound it certainly sounds like you've been there, because when you when you get there and you're like, oh I have I have nowhere to be, I have nothing to do, you have infinity and you have nothing in front of you. It's a it's a lot. It's a lot, but so you don't stay there long, and often you can't stay that long because the forces will pull you out of it, and those forces might be, you know, stuff you stored in your hair, stuff you stored in your body. Yeah. Um and so yeah, I've I too have had glimpses of of zero. Um but you wake up with amnesia, and so you have to remind yourself.

SPEAKER_03 58:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Yeah. And so I think that's why I have these rituals. Like, you know, you you go to bed and you're like, wow yeah, I've always plans. You wake up in the morning, you forget about it, uh, and you have to remind yourself of who you are and the direction you're going in. So, you know, if you're there one day, you might if you're lucky to be there the entire day, the next day might be different.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

I know.

SPEAKER_04 59:01

I know.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

You're like, and then you wake up, you're like, was that really, was that, was I really there? Did that really did that really happen? And um, yeah, you start to you you start to move out of it. Hey, I'm gonna get you out on these on these quick questions that I wanted to ask you, and I'm gonna let you get back to get back to your day. These are just some some uh you know um quick hits, like just give me the first thing that sort of comes to your mind when I when I when I ask you this. Um what is the do I have a one-word answer? Oh no, you got no no no no no not one word. You got a phrase, you can use a phrase, yeah. Just whatever comes to whatever comes to your mind. Um biggest lie founders tell themselves.

SPEAKER_03 59:41

Maybe I have to go quickly. Maybe that's the biggest lie. I feel like people in a rush. And slow is smooth, smooth is fast. That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Ooh, I like that. I like that, I like that. Or thirty thirty go 30%, 30% slower. 30% slower. I I I don't know what I've taken so many things out of today, but that that 30% slower is like it's it's it's right at the front of my brain right now for for for today. I'm hitting to see your your experience with it. Yeah, yeah. Um, next question. Um, hardest truth you've learned this year.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:23

This year it hasn't had many hard truths. Um perhaps I mean, this is in relation to perhaps finding uh hardest truth. I saw this on the email as well, and I'm like, I don't know if I have any hard hard truths. Can I skip this one?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

I don't have any hard truths. No, no, that's fine. That's fine, that's fine, that's fine. Um all right, well this this this should be it, this should be a good one for you, right? So, what's a practice you wish more leaders would adopt?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

That's a softball.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:59

Yeah, that is a softball, and I've said the slow thing. Um I think a very another very practical thing that I'd I do and probably should do more of, is like you just write down because like there's so much stuff to do all the time. And how do you define success? Like you always go to bed and you're like, I didn't do enough today, like I should have done more. I know I could have done more. I have had days where I've done so much, why can't I do that all the time? Um and I think you need to set up a criteria for success. What would make what would make a successful day? So at the start of the day, you just write down three things that you want to do, and you're like, if I do these three things, today is a successful day. And you know, there might be three big tasks, there might be three little tasks you choose, it doesn't matter. Uh but what you're giving yourself is permission to know that you had a good day, because maybe this is my hard truth. I was trying to get great days. And then when I wouldn't have a great day, like a like a nine out of ten day, a ten out of ten day output, every day I wanted a great day. And when I wouldn't get it, I would beat myself up. I'm like, I I know I'm po I'm no I can't why am I procrastinating? I know I'm capable of more. If only I work harder. And then I've realized, and I think Einstein talks about compounding effects and how it's like such a crazy phenomenon. It's like, bro, you don't need great days. All you need is a a you just need good days. You just stack good days. Yeah. What's a seven out of ten day? Yeah. Can I do a seven out of ten day today? Can I do it tomorrow? If you get one percent better every day, by the end of the day, uh by the end of the year, you are three thousand three hundred percent better. You're thirty-three times better than you were if you just get one percent better every day. So just stack good days. Uh and uh yeah, a way to do that is just write down what would make today a good day, and then you can sleep at night. Knowing you've done enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

Yeah, that's so good because I think um I don't know if I could define what a good day is, right? You know what I mean? I I until and maybe until afterwards, right? Until like you could I almost feel like I'm gonna probably define it myself right now. Here it is. Like when I think about what my what I intended my day to be, and at the end of the day, there's something that that was surprising or or happened that I didn't intend to happen that day. You know, you write down your list and do all these other things, and then there's something that takes place, you're like, oh man, like that was such a good experience, right? That I didn't I didn't anticipate that. And so for me, sometimes when I think about a good day, it's like it's it's probably you know something that happens that's outside of my guardrails that I didn't anticipate. That I said, oh wow, you know what I mean? Uh you know, having a conversation with you or having a conversation with uh, you know, another founder or something like that. And they they say something, it's like, oh, wow. You know, so like like today's gonna I already know today's gonna be a good day because now I'm gonna be thinking about this 30%, you know, slower. Um I'm gonna be thinking about unbecoming um or becoming ordinary and getting to zero. I don't know what that's gonna be. I'm gonna, I I I think what I'm gonna do with that when I feel like I'm at that zero, I gotta write it down too. I don't think I wrote that down. I I wasn't journaling back then when I probably hit that moment of zero. I wasn't writing, I wasn't anything. I think I was just experiencing it too. And I think I need to, if possible, to be able to write that down when you get to zero. So anyway, you're always giving me something to do, man. Always giving me something to think. Every time we have a conversation, every time we have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

I'm glad.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Well, I I I um this is long overdue. I'm glad we um finally got the opportunity to talk about uh your business, your leadership, who you are, and what you're doing, and um more importantly, like you know, the things that you're going to be doing with not just StrutFit, but with with your book and and and everything. So um I appreciate the conversation that we initially had when we first met, and I always appreciate our conversations, and thanks so much for being here, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:16

Hey man, it's been a pleasure meeting you and seeing your journey, and I'm looking forward to to your book and seeing you develop as well. It's just yeah, it's just great. I think we we paint such interesting tapestries with our with our journeys, and it's it's nice when you get to meet someone early on and you get to see that trajectory. So I look forward to that for both of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Yeah, same here, man. Same here, dude.